US v. Ghislaine Maxwell - Day 7

U.S. v Ghislaine Maxwell Transcripts

DAY 7  [12.7.21]

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Day 7, starting with lawyers' arguments about witnesses learning what's been said in court the previous day. The issue will have to be decided by Judge Nathan.

Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: My request is to find out what was communication to him by Jane, before he gets on the stand in front of the jury. He was shown a document Jane was asked about.

Judge Nathan: Which one?

Menninger: The Interlochen [school] application

Assistant US Attorney: Jane told him, The defense lawyer is an expletive.

Menninger: But what else did she tell him?

Judge Nathan: He shouldn't testify until after lunch.


And now, what else, a sealed sidebar discussion, not public now nor apparently ever.


OK, jury is in and AUSA Maurene Comey continues direct examination of FBI witness about search of Epstein's Manhattan mansion.

AUSA Comey: Who do we see in this photograph?

FBI witness: Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

AUSA Maurene Comey: Now let's turn to the [non-public] binder. What is it?

FBI witness: A photo from the investigation.

AUSA Comey: We offer it under seal.

Judge Nathan: It is sealed.


Next US witness is Stephen Flatley, FBI "CART" coordinator, digital forensic examiner and Quantico instructor.


AUSA: What is this?

Flatley: A hard drive I examined in this case.

AUSA: What is the "registered organization" for this computer hard drive?

FBI's Flatley: GMax.

AUSA: And this e-mail?

Flatley: From gmax1 [at] mindspring dot com. She says, I need to know what list John is using. No water in black Merc. No pens. Pool deck filthy

Flatley: GMax wrote, The massage creams in J.E.'s bathroom were a mess.

AUSA: We offer Exhibit 418 under seal.


Judge Nathan: Admitted under seal.


AUSA Pomerantz: And this document?

FBI's Flatley: It's by G-Max. It is about "massage lotion products." [For those asking, it's dated Sept 7, 2002]


Now Flatley is reading notes about Ghislaine, written by... GMax, including "Jeffrey and Ghislaine really complement each other, they are great partners." Also, "they are boyfriend and girlfriend unlike what some may think."

AUSA Pomerantz: No further questions.

Now the cross examination.

Maxwell's lawyer Laura Menninger: You don't know if anything was changed in the course of the copying, do you?

FBI's Flatley: I suppose I don't.

Menninger: And could you find out if GMax was in the same place as the computer?


And with a whimper and not a bang, Flatley is done.

Judge Nathan: Members of the jury, we'll take our mid-morning break.


Next witness: survivor Carolyn, testifying by first name only


Assistant US Attorney: Carolyn, how far did you go in school?

Carolyn: Seventh grade. My mother was an alcoholic. I got introduced to Mr. Epstein to give him a massage. I said OK.

AUSA: How old were you?

Carolyn: Fourteen (14)


AUSA: Who greeted you?

Carolyn: Ms. Maxwell.

AUSA: What did she look like?

Carolyn: An older lady. With an English accent. I couldn't pronounce her first name correctly so I called her Maxwell.

AUSA: How much money did you get?

Carolyn: $300, in hundreds.

AUSA: How much did Virginia Roberts [Giuffre] get?

Carolyn: I don't know.... Maxwell asked me for my phone number.

AUSA: What would Maxwell ask you when she called?

Carolyn: If I'd be available when they flew in. They asked me to travel overseas. I said there was no way my mother would say OK.

AUSA: Did you tell Maxwell how old you were?

Carolyn: I told her I was fourteen.

Carolyn: Maxwell came in and felt my boobs. She told me that I had a great body for Mr. Epstein and his friends.

AUSA: How did that relate to your breast and hip size?

Carolyn: She said I had a great body.


[Witness sounds like she is about to cry.]


AUSA: When you were naked, who would come in the room?

Carolyn: Mr. Epstein. First I would massage him. He would ask about my upbringing.

AUSA: Would Ms. Maxwell ever pay you?

Carolyn: Yes. She handed me three one hundred dollar bills.

Carolyn: Maxwell said Jeffrey wanted my address. I got sent lingerie, concert tickets and a book called "Massage for Dummies."

AUSA: Did you bring friends to Jeffrey Epstein's house?

Carolyn: Amanda Laslow, one year older than me.

Carolyn: Also Tatum and Julie... He asked me to bring younger people. I told him I don't hang out with younger people but there were some people I could ask. When I bought them I got paid $600 and she got paid $300.

AUSA: What did they do?

Carolyn: Sex and oral sex.

AUSA: What did you do with the money they paid you?

Carolyn: I was buying drugs.


[Now, witness is sobbing.]


AUSA: You need to say it into the microphone.                        

AUSA: Then what major event?

Carolyn: I had a baby.

AUSA: Did you go back to Jeffrey Epstein's house?

Carolyn: Yes. I had gone there while I was pregnant –

AUSA: I'm asking about after you had the baby.

Carolyn: I needed the money. But I realized I was too old.

AUSA: Did you later pawn an X-Box that wasn't yours?

Carolyn: I did. I did jail time. Then I did drug treatment and therapy. I take methadone and Xanax. And two others.

Carolyn: I am constantly afraid of my children being trafficked.

AUSA: Are you in touch with the father, Sean?

Carolyn: No, not since the X-Box pawn shop thing.

AUSA: Have you worked for an escort service and had sex with men for money?

Carolyn: Sometimes.

AUSA: What did Maxwell do it you?

Carolyn: She took pictures of me nude, and the stuff with Epstein.

AUSA: Who decided who you would sue?


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection!

Judge Nathan: Sustained. [To Carolyn, who was speaking] Don't answer, when I say Sustained.


And now, cross examination by Maxwell's lawyer Jeffrey Pagliuca. Pag: Sean was a friend of Virginia Roberts' boyfriend Tony, right? And you all smoked marijuana together and drank alcohol?

Carolyn: We didn't drink any alcohol.

Pagliuca: Virginia Roberts told you you could make $300?

Carolyn: No.

Pag: When Roberts approached you about making this $500, Maxwell was not there, correct?

Carolyn: It was me & Virginia.

Pag: Maxwell was not involved in the conversation, right?

Carolyn: Right.


Alert: Ghislaine Maxwell's lawyer Jeff Pagliuca just said the last name of this witness. Inner City Press caught it in time and did not say it. But AUSA Comey said nothing, nor did the Court.


Judge Nathan: We'll break here for lunch. Members of the jury, you have your lunch. We'll break.


Pagliuca: Look at the notes the FBI took during your interview, about a lady with short black hair and an "unknown" accent. They didn't cut you off, correct?

Carolyn: That was a bad day for me. I was not expecting the FBI to come to my home.

Pagliuca: You knew what a British accent was, but you said "an unknown accent," right?

Carolyn: The day that you're talking about –

Pagliuca: I'd ask the Court to make her answer.

Pagliuca: So for the 2d visit to Mr. Epstein's house, you sat in the kitchen and spoke with the chef, right?

Carolyn: I don't remember if it was the 2d visit or after.

Pagliuca: Show the witness what she said in 2007.

Carolyn: The FBI didn't ask me about Maxwell.

Pagliuca: Are you saying the FBI limited what you could say?

Carolyn: They didn't ask me about Maxwell.

Pagliuca: But you told the FBI about Sarah and the Incubus tickets from Epstein.

Carolyn: Yes.


Pagliuca: And you moved from Florida to Georgia.

Carolyn: Yes.

Pagliuca: I want to talk about the lawsuits you filed –

Carolyn: What does that have to do with me moving to Georgia?


After Pagliuca asks Carolyn again and again about FBI 302s and lawsuit paragraphs, Judge Nathan declared the afternoon break, having said she'll be addressing objection now out of the presence of the jury.

Judge Nathan: Let's pick up the first factual paragraph


Pagliuca: We argue the entire complaint is inconsistent, by omission. She mentions Sarah Kellen and not Ms. Maxwell.

AUSA Maurene Comey: This was a lawsuit against 2 defendants - there was no reason that 3d parties would be in.


Judge Nathan: I'm letting it in.


Just before the jury comes back in, AUSA Comey asks how long the cross examination is going to be, it's already been longer than the direct. No answer.


All rise!


Pagliuca: Do you recall abusing drugs from the age of 13?

Carolyn: If you call pot drugs, yes.

Pagliuca: So you went to Georgia to detox, right?

Carolyn: No. I went to Georgia to escape traumatic events in my life.

Paugliaca: Let's talk about your claims of sex with Epstein. Isn't it true you used cocaine while you were at Mr. Epstein's house?

Carolyn: No.

Carolyn: What does any of this have to do with what I'm here for today? Ghislaine Maxwell fondled me and broke my soul –

Pagliuca: Move to strike.


Judge Nathan: Carolyn, you have to follow my rules. Jury will disregard.

Carolyn: What does any of this have to do with what I'm here for today? Ghislaine Maxwell fondled me and broke my soul –

Pagliuca: Move to strike.


Judge Nathan: Carolyn, you have to follow my rules. Jury will disregard.


Pagliuca: You received these funds from the Epstein Compensation Fund –

Carolyn: No amount of money will ever heal –

Pagliuca: Move to strike.


Judge Nathan: Jury will disregard. I instruct the witness to comply with the rules.


Pagliuca: You claimed you saw a photograph of Ms. Maxwell pregnant, correct?

Carolyn: Nude and pregnant. That was on multiple –

Pagliuca: No further questions.

AUSA Maurene Comey: Three minutes. Did you write your legal complaint?

Carolyn: No (crying)

AUSA Comey: What year was it when you were 13?

Carolyn: If I do the math, yes.

AUSA Comey: Are you here to get money?

Carolyn: No, what she did is wrong, she took young girls –

Pagliuca: Objection.

AUSA Comey: No further questions.

Pagliuca: The $446,000 you got in 2009, that was gone in 2012, correct?

Carolyn: I don't know, sir. I have children I take care of.

Pagliuca: You can't recall how you spent $446,000? You lost all of it? No further questions.


Judge Nathan: Jurors, we're two minutes over. See you tomorrow.


Clerk: All rise!


Now government says: We will be resting this week (!)

They'd said five to six week trial - this is a big change. Now Judge Nathan floats a charging conference on Saturday the 18th.

Judge Nathan: I have inquired and we could get Ms Maxwell here on a Saturday, and open the overflow courtroom.

[Again: Why no listen-only call-in line, as existed even today in US v. Steve Bannon in DC?]

Judge Nathan: I remind you, one word objections only. 


*Thank you to Inner City Press for the coverage*  

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