US v. Ghislaine Maxwell - DAY 2
U.S. v. Ghislaine Maxwell

Day 2 [11.30.21]

Before Visoski re-takes the stand, Judge Nathan brings up again the unidentified juror who'd have to travel between Christmas and New Years.

Maxwell's lawyer Pagliuca: We'd like to know which juror it is, or at least if they are an alternate.

Judge Nathan: I think I have to excuse the juror, if they can't cancel or move the trip. I'll step down.

Clerk Ms. Williams: All rise!

Judge Nathan: I asked but it seems there is no way to change or move the trip. So I have excused Juror Number 58. The other jurors are ready. Please bring the witness into the box.

Larry Visoski, in the plexiglass witness box, says, "I'm OK."

Assistant US Attorney Comey: May the witness remove his mask?

Judge Nathan: Yes.

AUSA Comey: Good more, Mr. Visoski. What assistants did Mr. Epstein have other than Ms. Maxwell?

Visoski: There were many.

AUSA Comey: Did Ms. Maxwell have assistants?

Visoski: She did.

AUSA Comey: Can you name some assistants?

Visoski: There was a Kimberly and, of course, Sarah Kellen.

AUSA Comey: Is that Ms. Kellen?

[Exhibit is a woman in a bright green dress]

Visoski: Yes

AUSA Comey: That's this?

Visoski: The entrance to Mr. Epstein's Zorro Ranch... There is a triple-wide trailer with a faux Western facade. We had a runway and a hangar for our aircraft.

AUSA Comey: How many acres was Mr Epstein's ranch?

Visoski: Ten thousand acres.

AUSA Comey: Did you ever go into the main residence.

Visoski: Yes. To pick up luggage, and install electronics. Mr. Epstein was a real audiophile. He also had a home theater with a drop-down screen. He had a little family room off to the side.

AUSA Comey: Turning now to Mr. Epstein's island, what was it called?

Visoski: Little St. James. It was a regular destination. I also flew the helicopter, from St. Thomas to Little St. James. Also, more electronics installation.

AUSA Comey: How else could you get there?

Visoski: Boat.

AUSA Comey: OK, where did you meet Ms. Maxwell?

Visoski: She had a three bedroom apartment, I installed electronics there too. Then she bought her own townhouse.

AUSA: Why did you go there?

Visoski: Luggage.

AUSA Comey: Did Ms. Maxwell ever fly the helicopter?

Visoski: Many times.

AUSA Comey: And what are these photos?

Visoski: That's Mr. Epstein in front of his plane.

[The plane is black and Epstein is standing in front of it in a yellow windbreaker, with a smile.]

AUSA Comey: For Mr. Epstein, did you ever fly to Traverse City, Michigan?

Visoski: Yes. Must have been summer or fall, cherry season.

AUSA Comey: Where did you pick up his luggage?

Visoski: The Interlochen School of Music [Center for the Arts]

AUSA Comey: I offer into evidence this stipulation, that the dates of birth of these individuals are correct. We are submitting these under seal. Let the jurors pick up the binders under their chairs, to see the sealed exhibits. But don't open it.

Judge Nathan: And don't put them on the screen. Paper only. [Pause] I need glasses.

AUSA Comey: Government Exhibit 12... Mr. Visoski, is this the name of the female singer you remember being a passenger on Mr. Epstein's plane?

Visoski: Yes

AUSA Comey: We'll call her Jane. How did you meet her?

Visoski: Mr. Epstein brought her to the cockpit. She had piercing powder blue eyes.

AUSA Comey: Do you remember Virginia Roberts?

Visoski: Yes. A shorter woman with dirty blonde hair.

AUSA Comey: Nothing further.


Judge Nathan: You may cross examine.


Maxwell's lawyer Christian R. Everdell: You started working for Mr. Epstein with Dave Rogers, correct?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And he let you use the restroom?

Visoski: Yes. Like I need to now.

Judge Nathan: OK, looks like it's time for our mid-morning break.

Everdell: One last question before we break - did you walk through the cabin?

Visoski: Yes, in the Gulf Stream.

Everdell: Take a break.

Clerk: All rise! Thread will continue.

Judge Nathan: Mr. Everdell, how much longer? 20 minutes?

Everdell: An hour.

Judge Nathan: I hope you had a pleasant and TIMELY break, jurors. You may proceed.

Everdell: I trust you're feeling better.

Visoski: Much better.

Everdell: So you walked through the Gulf Stream to use the restroom, correct?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: If Mr. Epstein were engaging in sex acts with underage girls he probably would have told you not to leave the cockpit, correct?



Judge Nathan: Overruled.


Visoski: Correct.

Everdell: So this was before cell phones, and you were using beepers, correct?

Visoski: Yes. I'd recognize Mr. Epstein's number.

Everdell: And you'd mostly hear about flights from Ghislaine if she was going to be on them, right?

Visoski: Mostly.

Everdell: So former President Bill Clinton flew on the plane, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And you were told to clean up.

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: But some passengers, you were never told the names, right?

Visoski: Correct.

Everdell: I want to ask you about a few specific flights. You mentioned Interlochen, the arts center. Did you know that Epstein himself attended the summer camp, when he was a child?

Visoski: I was not.

Everdell: On your flights to Interlochen, wasn't Itzhak Perlman on one?

Visoski: Yes he was.

Everdell: And Epstein had a cabin there, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And you flew Mr. Epstein to Columbus, Ohio to see Les Wexner, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And the women we're calling Jane, you knew her real name, right?

Visoski: I do.

Everdell: And beyond the striking blue eyes, you have said she had large breasts, right?

Visoski: She was a mature woman.

Everdell: I'm sorry, we're having a choreography issue.

Judge Nathan: Can we move past it without sending the jurors back into the jury room?

Everdell: Yes, as long as I can return to it.

Judge Nathan: We'll just take a five minute break now.

Clerk: All rise!

Jury returns late.

Judge Nathan: Well at least you're getting your steps in. Please proceed.

Everdell: So there were others in Epstein's world who had the same name as the person we are calling Jane?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: Like sealed exhibit LV3a and LV3b

Everdell: Are you familiar with Prince Andrew?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And he flew on Mr. Epstein's plane, right?

Visoski: He did.

Everdell: Are you familiar with Annie Farmer?

Visoski: I've heard the name. But I don't know of any record.

Everdell: Put up LV4 and LV5. Mr.

Visoski, do you see the documents, with names?

Visoski: Yes.

Judge Nathan: Admitted under seal.

Everdell: The person we're calling Kate, her real name is on LV4, right?

Visoski: I don't remember that name at all.

Everdell: You've mentioned Bill Clinton, Itzhak Perlman, Prince Andrew... Did Donald Trump fly on Epstein's plane?

Visoski. Yes, he did.

Everdell: And John Glenn and George Mitchell flew on Epstein's plane, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And Kevin Spacey?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: After first staying in a hotel, did Mr. Epstein put you up in an apartment?

Visoski: Yes. At 301 East 66 Street. Sarah Kellen stayed there too. And the person who's name we can't say, LV3a.

Everdell: But not Jane, right?

Visoski: I did not see Jane.

Everdell: The green sports car, who gave it to Mr. Epstein?

Visoski: Les Wexner.

Everdell: And Mr. Epstein gave you 40 acres of land in New Mexico, on which to build you home

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And he paid your two children's college tuition?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: He cared about your daughters when they were in college, right?

Visoski: And even when they were younger.

Everdell: And Mr. Epstein had back problems and needed massages, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: He used 10,000 Waves Studio in Santa Fe, yes?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And when he met him, Epstein's girlfriend was Eva Andersson-Dubin, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And Ms. Maxwell just worked for him?

Visoski: It seemed that way.

Everdell: Later, whatever personal relationship existed between Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell fizzled out, right?

Visoski: Yes, in the 2000s.

Everdell: And Epstein brought in others, like personal assistant Sarah Kellen, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: And later Ghislaine was in a relationship with Ted Waitt, CEO of Gateway Computers, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: She introduced you to Mr. Waitt's pilot, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: Good time for a break.

Judge Nathan: Done.

Judge Nathan: Mr. Everdell, you may continue with your cross examination of Mr Visoski. And Mr. Visoski, I remind you that you are under oath.

Everdell: People liked to go hiking on the Zorro Ranch, right?

Visoski: Yes.

Everdell: But since there were snakes, one needed boots, right?

Visoski: Yes, that would be preferred.

Everdell: And you never saw Ghislaine looking pregnant, did you?

Visoski: I never did.

Everdell: And Ghislaine seemed like a nice person to you, did she not?

Visoski: She did.

Everdell: And you have two daughters - and you let them ride horses with Ghislaine, right?

Visoski: I did.

Everdell: You saw nothing in 30 years that made you think Mr. Epstein was an abuser, right?

Visoski: I did not.

Everdell: Nothing further.


Judge Nathan: Re-direct.


AUSA Maurene Comey: Did you let your 14 year old daughter massage Mr. Epstein?

Visoski: I did not. 

Second Witness, "Jane"

AUSA Comey: Nothing further. And we call our next witness, "Jane."

Judge Nathan:: I order the sketch artist not to accurately depict the witness.

AUSA Comey: What is Government Exhibit 12, under seal?

"Jane" - It is my birth certificate.

AUSA Comey: How old were you when you first had sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein?

Jane: 14.

AUSA: Who was in the room?

Jane: Ghislaine Maxwell.

AUSA: Do you see her here?

Jane: Yes. There. In sort of a beige turtleneck.

AUSA: She has identified the defendant.

AUSA Comey: What type of work did your father do?

Jane: He was a musical composer. Then he died of leukemia. His employer had canceled his health insurance without him knowing. We essentially went bankrupt and had to move out.

AUSA Comey: When you were at Interlochen, did you meet a couple?

Jane: Yes. The woman had a dog and the man said they were big benefactors. They asked for my mother's phone number. A landline.

AUSA Comey: When you visited, what do you remember about spending time at the pool?

Jane: There were four woman and Ghislaine, all topless and some of them were naked. I was shocked. I hadn't seen that before. Maxwell would ask me if I had boyfriends.

AUSA Comey: Did Epstein begin to pay for things for you?

Jane: Voice lessons. Clothes. Things for school.

AUSA: Did Ms Maxwell give you some advice?

Jane: That if you f*ck them you can always f*ck them, they're sort of grandfathered in. I didn't know what it meant

AUSA: What did they tell you about their social circle?

Jane: Donald Trump. Bill Clinton. Mike Wallace.

AUSA: How was the house decorated?

Jane: Art, sculptures. Pictures of famous people, presidents. I thought some of the art was odd - naked women, creepy animals

Jane: Epstein took me into the pool house. He proceeded to masturbate on me. Then he went into the bathroom & cleaned himself & acted like nothing happened. I'd never seen that before.

AUSA: Did you keep spending time with them?

Jane: Yes. Jeffrey [Epstein] proceeded to masturbate again. Ghislaine was rubbing on him, kissing on him.

AUSA: How old were you?

Jane: Fourteen.

AUSA: What was Ms. Maxwell's demeanor like?

Jane: She was very casual, like this was entirely normal. I was confused. When you are 14 you have no idea what is going on.

AUSA: Did Jeffrey Epstein touch you?

Jane: Yes. Everywhere.

AUSA: Did you touch Mr. Epstein?

Jane: [pause] Everywhere.

AUSA: I'm sorry to ask you this, but did he use sex toys?

Jane: Yes. Like those back massagers. They were painful. He did it anyway.

AUSA: Did Maxwell touch your body?

Jane: Yes.

AUSA: How often did these things happen?

Jane: Every time I visited his house.

AUSA: Did you travel to his other homes?

Jane: Yes.

AUSA: We'll back back to that. When other people were present, how did incidents start?

Jane: Jeffrey would say, follow him.

AUSA: Follow him where?

Jane: To his bedroom. Or to the massage room. He would get on the massage table and it would sort of turn into this orgy.

AUSA: How often was Maxwell present?

Jane: I can't give a precise number.

AUSA: During the incident when you were 14, was Maxwell in the room?

Jane: Yes.

AUSA: When you were 14, 15 and 16 how many times did you travel with them?

Jane: About ten times. To NYC, and New Mexico. On Jeffrey's plane.

AUSA: What kind of artwork did they have?

Jane: Yes, it was weird. Animal heads. Naked women. Orgies. It didn't seem very unusual at this point.

AUSA: How did you feel, in the New York house?

Jane: Like someone was always watching you.

AUSA: What would Epstein asked you to do?

Jane: To straddle his face. To pinch his nipples.

AUSA: Were there times that Maxwell was present?

Jane: Yes.

AUSA: In the NY house, where did this happen?

Jane: In the massage room.

AUSA: On the trip to New Mexico, where did you spend most of your time?

Jane: On the ranch. It was in the middle of nowhere.

AUSA: Did anyone come into your room?

Jane: Yes. Someone came in and said, Jeffrey wants to see you and escorted me to see him.

Jane (sobbing) I did not want to go see him.

AUSA: Who told you Epstein wanted to see you?

Jane: Don't know. I had to fly back to Florida to go to school. I took a commercial flight. But I was only 15 and didn't even have a [drivers] learner's permit.

Jane: So I couldn't get on the flight back to Florida, having no ID. I freaked out. But Maxwell helped solve it. She talked to someone & I got on the plane.

AUSA: What was your home life like at the time?

Jane: We were losing our home. We moved into a pool house.

Jane: My mom was enamored by the idea that these affluent people were taking an interest in me –


Objection! Hearsay!


AUSA: It's for the effect on the listener.

Judge Nathan: You may ask that question. But not what the mother said.

AUSA: Could we approach?

Judge Nathan: The jurors' snacks are hear. Let's take a 10 minute break.

Judge Nathan: Jurors, you will hear what the witness' mother said. That is not offered for the truth of the matter asserted, but for the impact on the witness. You may proceed.

AUSA: What did your mother say?

Jane: That I should be grateful for their attention.

AUSA: Did you tell your siblings about the abuse?

Jane: No. I was ashamed. And I had a manic-depressed mother who didn't know how to cope. [sobs] It seemed hopeless.

Jane: I spoke to my school guidance counselor, who then called my mother. My mother told me, You don't talk about what happens at home and embarrass us.

AUSA: Jane, what kind of work do you do now?

Jane: I am still an actor. I got work in LA. But I didn't know how to trust, how to reciprocate.

AUSA: When did you stop being in touch with Jeffrey Epstein?

Jane: In 2002. I fell in love with someone.

Jane: Epstein kept calling me and saying he wanted to see me, that I needed to be grateful to him, that my mother was living in one of his apartments. Do you want me to continue?

AUSA: Was that the last time?

Jane: Yes.

AUSA: Later did you tell the man I'll call Matt about Epstein?

Jane: Yes. Not in detail. But I did. By then you saw Epstein on the TV all the time. He had been arrested.

AUSA: Did the FBI interview you in September 2019?

Jane: Yes.

Jane: May 2019.

AUSA: Did you sue Ghislaine Maxwell?

Jane: Yes. In 2020.

AUSA: And the Epstein Victims' Fund?

Jane: Yes. They awarded me $5 million. Of that, I got approximately $2.9 million.

AUSA: Would the verdict in this case impact that?


Objection! Sidebar.


AUSA: Would a verdict here impact that?

Jane: No.

Judge Nathan: This is not a legal opinion.

AUSA: Why do you want to be anonymous?

Jane: Because I work in Hollywood and victim shaming is still the norm.

AUSA: No further questions.

Judge Nathan: Ms. Menninger you may cross examine.

Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: You waited 20 years to complain, correct?

Jane: Correct.

Menninger: Two full decades before your first report to the police. By then Mr. Epstein was dead, correct?

Jane: Correct.

Menninger: And you had two personal injury attorneys with you. Mr. Glaxman and Mr. Workman. And AUSA Moe.

Jane: Yes.

Menniger: In the 20 years, you spoke to several people close to you. To the person we're referring to as Matt. Your sister Camilla-



[There is a sidebar. Now they return.]

Menninger: You told one of your older sisters, right?

Jane: Right.

Menninger: But you didn't mention Ghislaine Maxwell, correct?

Jane: I don't know.

Menninger: You have four older siblings?

Jane: One older sibling, three older half siblings.

Menninger: Show the witness 3509-008.

Objection! She's just reading document not in evidence. She can refresh

Menninger: I'm not refreshing, I'm impeaching.

Judge Nathan: Well, you're not impeaching yet, Ms. Menninger. The objection is sustained. I'm going to reach the document to myself.

Menninger: You told Ms. Moe you lived in the same house –

US: Objection! No foundation.

Menninger: I wasn't going to ask for the street address, I was going to ask if she knows it, where the country club is.

Jane: I don't know. I've never been to a country club.

Menninger: I'd like to show the witness another sealed document.

Jane: I recognize my mother's signature and mine. But I don't recognize the document.

Menninger: What do you believe this document to be?


AUSA: Objection!

Judge Nathan: Sustained


Menninger: How about this page?

Judge Nathan: You should do this on paper, I always thought that was a better idea, not the screen. So this is J-5? And the question is, do you recognize the document?


Jane: I do. It's the application for Interlochen camp.

Menninger: And is your signature on the 2d page?

Jane: Yes. It's dated 5/7/94.

Menninger: Before you met Jeffrey Epstein, right? Did you apply for financial aid or scholarship?


AUSA: Let them offer it into evidence. Under seal.

Judge Nathan: So ordered.


Menninger: You did not apply for aid.

Jane: I guess not. I was a child.

Judge Nathan: It's 5 o'clock and we're going to break.

Clerk: All rise!

Jury leaves.


Judge Nathan: No communication on substance between US and witness, since she's under cross. Be seated.


Judge Nathan: We have some matters to take up.

AUSA: The defense never showed up these documents. It violated Rule 16.

Maxwell's lawyer: The rule does not apply.

AUSA: Then it's not admissible.

Judge Nathan: It's one page of J-36? How does it impeach?

Defense: It shows the street she lives on.

Judge Nathan: It's a current photo. It is not impeaching.

AUSA: It's in violation of Rule 16. We would ask that the Court direct them to produce it forthwith.

Defense: But today's we've seen, and you've admitted, a photo of the Epstein home today.

Judge Nathan: But they had a witness saying it's fair and accurate representation.

AUSA: We'll brief it. [and we'll report on it]


Judge Nathan: Both sides should put in letters by 9 pm tonight. Now we have to deal with the identifying information.

AUSA: We will speak with the defense about it, this evening.

Judge Nathan: The witness is on cross, do you agree they can talk to her? Then raise it to me in a letter tonight.

AUSA: We'll confer right after the court day today and submit letters by 10 pm.

Judge Nathan: Fine.

AUSA: "Matt" will be the next witness.


*Thank you to Inner City Press for the coverage*  

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