U.S. v Ghislaine Maxwell Transcripts

DAY 10  [12.10.21]

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Day 10, jury finally seated, jurors being directed to binder of sealed non-public exhibits.

Assistant US Attorney Rohrbach: The government calls William Brown of the NYS Dept of Motor Vehicles.

AUSA: Are you aware how people receive ID cards?

Brown: Yes.

AUSA: Please pick up the folder next to you, [sealed] government exhibit.


Judge Nathan: I will admit these exhibits under seal.


AUSA: Look at Defense Exhibit LD3A, it's in the front of the binder. How old in 1996 was this person, born in 1985?

Brown: 11 years old.


No cross.. Next witness.


AUSA: The government calls Annie Farmer.


Clerk: Spell your name.


Judge Nathan: I instruct you that the physical conduct you will hear about in New Mexico was not "illegal sexual activity." But it may be relevant, but not of propensity.

AUSA Pomerantz: Please take out sealed exhibit 13.

AUSA: In what state were your born?

Annie Farmer: Missouri.

AUSA: Where did you get your PhD?

Annie Farmer: University of Texas at Austin.

AUSA: How old were you when Maxwell gave you a massage?

Annie Farmer: I was 16.

AUSA: What were your family's finances?

Annie Farmer: My parents were divorced. I was worried how college would be paid for.

AUSA: Do you have an older sister?

Annie Farmer: Maria. She's 9 years older. She was living in NYC. She was working with Jeffrey Epstein.

AUSA: How did you travel to NYC?

Annie Farmer: Jeffrey Epstein paid. I was excited to see my father. Jeffrey Epstein had said –


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection! Hearsay!

Judge Nathan: Sustained.


AUSA: What did your sister say to you about the trip to NY?


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection - hearsay.

AUSA: Effect on the listener.

Judge Nathan: Is this was we discussed? I'll let it in, within a scope. And I'll tell the juror this is not offered for the truth.


AUSA: Who did you thank for your ticket?

Annie Farmer: Epstein –


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection! Hearsay!


AUSA: I'll move on. Did you meet Jeffrey Epstein?

Annie Farmer: Yes. Twice during this trip.

AUSA: Show the witness, the parties and the court Gov Exhibit 101.


AUSA: What is this?

Annie Farmer: My high school yearbook photo. [Photo shown on screen - should be made available later - later today if Judge Rakoff's precedent is followed:

Annie Farmer: Epstein's home was very grand.

AUSA: What did Epstein ask you about?

Annie Farmer: My plans. He suggested UCLA and said he had connections.

Annie Farmer: He suggested I go on an international trip to boost my application.

Annie Farmer: We went to see the movie "Five Monkeys." [12?]

AUSA: Where did Epstein sit?

Annie Farmer: Between us. Then he rubbed my leg.

AUSA: What was your reaction?

Annie Farmer: I was very surprised. I felt sick to my stomach.

Annie Farmer: When Maria would look over, he would stop. Then begin again.

AUSA: Did you tell your sister?

Annie Farmer: No. I was confused. I knew she was protective, I knew she would be upset, she might lose her job. So I decided not to say anything.

AUSA: Did you write in your journal?

Annie Farmer: I did.

AUSA: Please describe your journaling.

Annie Farmer: I was not a consistent journaler but I would sometimes write down what was happening in my life.

[Journal entry shown on screen. Annie Farmer reads from it incl about going to see Phantom of the Opera, champagne with Epstein. Then, a later entry, We went to the movies with Jeffrey Epstein. I was weirded out, he let go of my hand when he was talking to Maria

AUSA: How did you feel about Epstein as you wrote this?

Annie Farmer: I was conflicted. I knew it was not normal or right. But I was trying to make it seem OK.

Annie Farmer journal continued: I am thinking of doing something in Africa. It was be incredible.

AUSA: Where did you next see Jeffrey Epstein?

Annie Farmer: New Mexico.

AUSA: Who did you think you'd be seeing there?


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection - [lack of] foundation.

Judge Nathan: Sustained.


AUSA: When you landed in New Mexico what happened next?

Annie Farmer. There was a man with a sign with my name on it. He drove us to the ranch. There, I met Ghislaine Maxwell. She was slim and attractive, in her 30s. She was an adult.

AUSA: What did she sound like?

Annie Farmer: She had a British accent... I had been told that Maxwell would be there in New Mexico and it made me more comfortable, after what happened in New York.

AUSA: Who told you Maxwell would be there?

Annie Farmer: My mother.

AUSA: What did you and Maxwell talk about?


Annie Farmer: My life, my school, British authors.

AUSA: Did you leave the ranch?

Annie Farmer: Yes, a nature food store. Maxwell bought me henna. A western wear store, cowboy boots purchased for me.

AUSA: What did you think of the boots?

Annie Farmer: They cost over $100 dollars. I was grateful, gracious. We went to the movies. I didn't want to go because of what happened in NY. But I thought it would be different with Maxwell there.

AUSA: For how much of the movie did he touch you?

Annie Farmer: Most of it. He didn't hide it. And afterward back at the ranch, Maxwell told me to rub his feet, that she'd show me how... Later Maxwell told me to get undressed and started rubbing my breasts.

Annie Farmer: I wanted to get off the table, I wanted out of there. The door was open and I had the sense Epstein could see. In the morning Epstein came into my room and said he wanted to cuddle. He climbed to bed with me. I didn't like it.

AUSA: Did you tell him?

Annie Farmer: No. There was no one else around.

AUSA: What happened?

Annie Farmer: I went into the bathroom and shut the door. I waited.

AUSA: Where did you go in 1996?

Annie Farmer: Thailand and Vietnam, cultural immersion.

[Photo shown on screen of Annie Farmer and another with a small elephant with a wooden seat on it]

AUSA: Who paid for the trip?

Annie Farmer: Epstein.

AUSA: Any more contact with Maxwell and Epstein?

Annie Farmer: No. AUSA: Who did you first tell?

Annie Farmer: My mother, generally.

AUSA: What did you tell your mom?


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection! Sidebar...

[The lawyers go up to whisper with Judge Nathan. Maxwell remains alone at the defense table, today in an orange or pink sweater, rubbing her arms.]

[They've back from the sidebar.]


AUSA: Did you tell anyone else?

Annie Farmer; I had a boyfriend and I told him.

AUSA: Did you speak to the media?

Annie Farmer: Many times. First in 2002.

AUSA: Law enforcement?

Annie Farmer: 2006-07. To the FBI.

AUSA: Have you spoken with the media since?

Annie Farmer: Yes. Off the record in 2016 and on the record in 2019.

AUSA: Were you paid for the interviews?

Annie Farmer: No.

AUSA: Were you interviewed by law enforcement in NY?

Annie Farmer: Yes. In 2019. In the fall I sued Epstein and Maxwell.

AUSA: Did you participate in the Epstein victims compensation fund?

Annie Farmer: Yes. I was awarded $1.5 million. My lawyers were pro bono.

AUSA: Any financial stake in the outcome of this trial?

Annie Farmer: No.

AUSA: No further questions.


Judge Nathan: Cross examination.


Maxwell's lawyer Laura Menninger: Good morning. Your sister is the one who arranged your travel to NY?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: You told the FBI that flying alone was not abnormal for you, correct?

Annie Farmer: I usually had my younger sister with me, when I flew to visit my father.

Menninger: Here's the report.

Annie Farmer: I see it.

Menninger: Ghislaine Maxwell had no role in your travel to NY, right?

Annie Farmer: She did not.

Menninger: You believed that Mr. Epstein purchased your plane ticket?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: You also saw the Blue Man Group and went to a flea markets with your sister, correct?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: In NY, Ms Maxwell didn't take you to the Lion King, correct?

Annie Farmer: She did not.

And now the jury takes its mid-morning break.


Now Maxwell's lawyer Menninger continues digging into NY trip, the lack of Maxwell, other pages of Annie' journal. Expect Loftus on memory lost in defense's case


Menninger: You wrote about a cross country skiing trip and going to see bands and a bar...Significantly, you really talked about your emotions after returning from NY, what a great time you had there.

Menninger: So in your journal, you said what Epstein did in the movie theater was not weird, correct?

Annie Farmer: I was struggling.

Menninger: So you are only calling it weird in hindsight. You are viewing what happened in NY in light of what happened in NM?

Menninger: Let's go to Exhibit 604, the last journal entry you gave to the government for this case?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: And you never gave the government the full journal, right?

Annie Farmer: Right.

Menninger: You researched when Primal Fear came out then fit your memory to it?

Annie Farmer: I wouldn't say it that way.

Menninger: You communicated with a journalist and told him you'd research the release date of Primal Fear, right?

Annie Farmer: Yes.


Judge Nathan: We're going to break for lunch.

Jurors leave.

Judge Nathan: Any issues?


Lunch break


As we return to the courtroom, Maxwell is chatting with her lawyer, smiling, then sitting with her chin in her hands.

Still no Judge Nathan.

Docketing the Press letter and releasing logs and lists?


Cross continues. 

Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: On direct you didn't mention it, but there was a cook on the ranch as well, right?

Annie Farmer: I have no memory of that.

Menninger: And you didn't see the big glorious Zorro ranch at that time, right?

Annie Farmer: No.

Menninger: You mentioned the boots. But on the trip you spent a significant amount of time horseback riding.

Annie Farmer: Is that a question?

Menninger: You told the FBI that in 2006, right?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: Are these the boots?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: I move for admission of the boots.

Menninger: So you decided to wear the boots, even when you knew they were evidence. You wore them frequently?

Annie Farmer: I didn't wear them to work. I wore them when I was two-stepping.

Menninger: So you wore the boots Jeffrey Epstein gave you when you danced

Menninger: So in the movie theater there was no touching of your genitalia or private parts, was there?

Annie Farmer: No.

Menninger: And you said you were naked for the full body massage. But you only told the journalist you had no bra on-


AUSA: Objection!


Menninger: You said in 2019 you were unsure if you had your underwear on.

Judge Nathan: Objection overruled. I'll allow the question.


Menninger: You do not recall Jeffrey Epstein pushing an erect penis into your back, do you?

Annie Farmer: I do not recall that.

Menninger: Look at this.

Menninger: You told your mother that you were not raped or sexually abused, right?

Annie Farmer: I said I was not raped.

Menninger: So you told the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund that the hand-handing in movie theaters was sexual abuse?

Annie Farmer: I told them in detail what happened.

Menninger: But you checked the box, New York. So you think hand holding is sexual abuse

Menninger: You are represented by the Boies Schiller firm, correct?

Annie Farmer: Yes.

Menninger: Do you know how much that firm has made in connection with representing Epstein accusers?


Judge Nathan: Objection.

Menninger - and you –

Judge Nathan: Stop!


Menninger: You are on a WhatsApp group of Epstein victims, right?

Annie Farmer: Right.

Menninger: And you have emailed with Virginia Roberts, right?

Annie Farmer: I have.



AUSA Pomerantz: Do you recall being asked of your FBI statements in 2006?

Annie Farmer: I do.

AUSA: Read the rest of the sentence.


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection!

Judge Nathan: Overruled.


Annie Farmer: They canceled Maria trip to NM at the last minute.

AUSA Pomerantz: You mentioned the film Primal Fear-

Annie Farmer: The movie depicts sexual misconduct [wiki: Primal Fear is a 1996 American legal thriller film [about] a Chicago attorney who believes that his client is not guilty of murdering a Catholic archbishop

AUSA Pomerantz: Did you need a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts?


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection!


Annie Farmer: I do not. It was distressing. Those are things that we remember.

Annie Farmer: I believe they were trying to confuse me as to the boundaries, as to what was right and wrong, in order to sexually abuse me.


Maxwell's lawyer: Objection!

Judge Nathan: Overruled.

AUSA: No further questions.

Judge Nathan: Next witness.


And now before the next witness, Judge Nathan calls a break, urging counsel to confer.


The next witness is David Mulligan, now a baker, Annie Farmer's boyfriend in high school.

AUSA: Did Annie tell you how how the trip to Thailand was paid for?

Mulligan: Yes. Jeffrey Epstein.


AUSA: What did Annie tell you about being in New York?

Mulligan: That Epstein touched her leg in the theater and that she didn't want to say anything because Epstein was helping her sister Maria's artistic career.

AUSA: Did Annie tell you Maxwell touched her on the breasts during the massage?

Mulligan: Yes.

AUSA: Did Annie tell you what she didn't speak up?

Mulligan: She was afraid of jeopardizing her sister Maria's opportunities with Epstein.


Now cross examination by Maxwell's Bobbi Sternheim.


Sternheim: You've seen things in the media about this?

Mulligan: I'm not much of a news watcher.

Sternheim: You know she made $1.5 million?

Mulligan: I do not.

Sternheim: Annie Farmer attended your recent wedding, correct?

Mulligan: Yes.

Sternheim: No further questions.




AUSA: Why do you remember what Annie Farmer told you about New Mexico?

Mulligan: These were big moments, that we discussed while being physically affectionate with each other.

AUSA: No further questions.


Judge Nathan: Next witness


Next witness is the mother of Annie Farmer, Janice Swain.


AUSA: How old are you:

Swain: 71.

AUSA: When did you speak with Jeffrey Epstein?

Swain: When he wanted to take Maria on his plane to Florida on a work trip.

Swain: Then Epstein told me about a meeting of students at his ranch in New Mexico, to talk about college plans. I asked who would be chaperoning? He said his wife Ghislaine would be.

Swain: Annie returned with a pair of black boots. She said Jeffrey Epstein bought them for her. She seemed very tired. Later I asked what happened in New Mexico.

AUSA: What did she say?

Swain: That she didn't want to talk about it.

AUSA: No further questions


Maxwell's lawyer Menninger: You don't know if Maxwell was aware whether Maria travel to New Mexico, do you? And when Annie was in Thailand you were in Germany, correct?

Swain: Yes.

Menninger: No further questions.


AUSA: The government rests.


Jury leaves.


Maxwell's laywer Everdell: Defense moves for acquittal.


Judge Nathan: As to all counts?


Everdell: Yes. Counts depend on the testimony of Jane. There is no evidence that anyone persuaded or induced Jane to come to NY.

Everdell: There is flying BACK to Palm Beach - that is not enticing to New York. Accompanying is not encouraging. All Ghislaine did was paperwork.

AUSA Rohrbach: The court should deny the motion. Jane was not in NY by accident. There was no non-sexualized reason. Jane said the defendant talked about sex with her - the enticement statute applies.


Judge Nathan: Motions are denied. What do we need to discuss before Thursday?


Team Maxwell: We want our witnesses anonymous too.


Judge Nathan: It should have been raised earlier. The earliest decision I can give you is Wednesday evening. And charging conference on Saturday, Dec 18.

Judge Nathan: So defense case 16th and 17th –


Maxwell's lawyer: Into the 20th. Judge Nathan: So closing arguments on the 21st.


Maxwell's lawyer Sternheim: We don't want the jury to rush to decide before Christmas holiday.


Judge Nathan: We'll see where we are.


Sternheim: US has already said there will be a rebuttal case. We don't want the jury to rush.


AUSA: It'd only be a rebuttal expert. We'll be ready to close day after evidence.



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